Guest: Christopher Knight, CEO of Ezine Articles
Travis Miller: And welcome to Straight Talk with Jimmy Vee and Travis Miller. Of course, this is Travis Miller ––
Jimmy Vee: And this is Jimmy Vee!
Travis Miller: And man, we have got some good stuff for you today, and I know we say that all the time, but that’s because it’s true. Always good stuff. But today it’s especially true because we’ve got a pioneer on the line. Have you ever been to one of those pioneer villages, Jim? Like maybe in Fort Wilderness at Disney or something like that? Or somewhere near Ocala in Florida? You go to little cracker village where the pioneers used to live?
Jimmy Vee: I’ve been to the Renaissance Fair.
Travis Miller: Oh, it’s very much like the Renaissance Fair. Exactly. We’ve got a true online pioneer on the line here, and one of these true internet entrepreneurs who has made an enormous impact in the online world as we know it today, and has really worked to shape the foundation of the internet as it is right now. And we’re really thrilled to have an opportunity to speak with our guest, who is Christopher Knight, the founder of EzineArticles.com. And I know Jimmy is giddy because Christopher’s Alexa ranking for the three-month average is 213, 214, and as Christopher pointed out to us though is that the weak average is 188.
So what that means for those who don’t know it is that’s ranking traffic to the website against all other websites in existence, and so that means that this week Christopher’s website was ranked number 188 out of all websites in the amount of traffic it had to site, so that is enormous.
And having said all of that, I want to welcome you, Chris, to our interview.
Christopher Knight: Yes, thanks. Glad to be here.
Travis Miller: Good, well really appreciate you volunteering to share your time and energy and wisdom with us, and more importantly, with the many people listening to the program. And I know you’ve got great information to share, and some tools and tips on how to use your free service, which is amazing. EzineArticles.com, of course, is a free service, which we’ve been recommending and using for years. I mean, you know, you can’t beat a free tool. So we’re going to go over some of those tips here in a little while.
But first I really want to take the opportunity to chat you up a bit and find out a little bit more about you and let people hear more about you, because it’s rare to have you know, to have the opportunity to talk to someone with say a résumé such as yours. And I want people to, you know, who are maybe struggling out there right now and trying to start their own business to hear your story and say hey, you know what? These things can work. And you know, maybe – you know, here’s how I can do it.
Christopher Knight: Sure.
Travis Miller: So, Chris why don’t you tell us a little bit about how you began and whatever inspired you to create EzineArticles.com.
Christopher Knight: It’s my 8th dot come internet-related revenue stream business. Okay? Not every one worked out so great. A few of them – I closed up a few of them I sold for $10,000 here, there. A few of them – one of them did well before this and so EzineArticles.com is a business that was bought in the during the first internet boom in the late 1990s.
Travis Miller: Yes.
Christopher Knight: Everyone was raising venture capital so I raised up my hand and said sure, I’ll raise some venture capital, and so I went on a buying streak to buy up all the related sites that were related to sources of tools for email newsletter publishers. That was going to be my niche. Right?
Travis Miller: Okay.
Christopher Knight: And so EzineArticles.com was actually one of those properties back in 1999 was originally started.
Travis Miller: So you were going to be the Ezine Queen. [Laughter]
Christopher Knight: No. And I didn’t want to be the Ezine King either because that’s – I think that was somebody in the non-permission based spamming site that had that title, so I didn’t want to be the Ezine king.
Travis Miller: Okay.
Christopher Knight: And I have worked with the Ezine queen. That’s a different story. Right? [Laughter] So yeah, Ezine Articles is one of those properties that was acquired at the time. And I was running two businesses at that time. One was called SparkLIST which is now owned by Lyris.
Travis Miller: Oh, yeah. I’m familiar with SparkLIST. Yeah.
Christopher Knight: SparkLIST is an email newsletter hosting company. So that was the last previous thing that I built that I thought was pretty great. We had a good team. Had ~$3 million in sales and we were serving up 1,000-plus business clients with their email newsletters. My background is from being an ISP, being a web host, being a web designer, being a web developer. Being a platform-builder if you will.
And then after SparkLIST was sold in 2002, I kind of got lost for about a year and a half where I was trying to rediscover okay, I’ve got all these sites, and EzineArticles.com at the time was in the worse-less category, right? It was an asset that was – had no value. No real market value. In fact, the original model was – and I should clarify something. I’m not actually the founder. Kate Schultz was the original founder of EzineArticles.com. She sold to us in 2000 I think it was.
But in the original site, you actually had to – in order to –as a user of a site to read the whole article, you had to give up your email address in order for it to deliver the full article.
Travis Miller: Okay.
Christopher Knight: But that was the original model. I thought, well that’s kind of dumb. It was smart back then, but people just don’t – you know, there’s too much spam in the world, and so people don’t do that anymore. So in 2004 I put together a small team and we said okay, this – let’s start all over again, and that’s one of those defining life moment type things with a site. Where you say there’s nothing here that’s working. Even though we had one thing that’s working, of all the sites that we had in our stable websites that – in the category of worthless. EzineArticles.com at that time had 4,500 visitors a month. We thought wow. That’s a lot of visitors for a site that sucks. [Laughter]
But for a site, you know, that we had given no attention to for years, we really had abandoned that in 2002, and just really didn’t keep it up because the model was just wrong. It wasn’t right to have to give up you email address to read the full article. It sounded kind of silly. I don’t know why we allowed that model to continue when we first got it in the first place, but back then that was cool.
And so in July 2004, this site had 4,500 visitors a month. Of course, we get that now in the first I don’t know how many minutes of the day after midnight we get that. So we scrapped the entire site and applied this new content management system that we’ve been working on from 2003.
And so it was kind of – the stars all kind of lined up, and initially EzineArticles.com was a fee-backed service. You had to pay money. So we were similar to that of a a press release distribution service. We were like P.R. or something. You had to give – it’s kind of crazy. You had to give us money to give us your content, and then you got access to our 4,500 visitors a month. And we were really doing six figures with that. I mean, that was a good business back in 2004.
And then it was January 7, 2005 that we made another milestone life decision with the site, which is we’re going to go free. We’re going to go free, and we’re going to stop taking money, and we converted to an advertising-based model, and that’s when things really turned around. That’s when the membership shot up and we just have grown hundreds of percent over the years since then.
Travis Miller: Okay.
Christopher Knight: But yeah, in fact, the reason the site – I wanted to be a rock star, but I didn’t get the looks, I didn’t get the voice, I didn’t get the talent, musical talent. You know, I didn’t get anything you need to be a rock star. And the reason I wanted to be a rock star was because I wanted to find a way to create value for millions of people at one time.
Travis Miller: Okay.
Christopher Knight: Instead of just doing the one thing with coaches and consultants and clients, I wanted to create millions of – you know, value at one time. And so EzineArticles.com is really the platform that I’m able to do that with. It’s kind of like a vehicle for me. And I’ve got a great team. There are fifty of us now that work behind the scenes that run the business of EzineArticles.com. I think some people think it’s just me and a few other people, but it’s not. It’s quite a team behind the scenes.
Travis Miller: What do you keep fifty people busy with over there?
Christopher Knight: Yeah, thirty or so are editors on the – there’s three types of editors. We have front line editor. Every article – here’s a fact, every article submitted is reviewed by two human editors. Okay? So after our software detects that the article meets enough guidelines that it can be submitted, then a first human editor reviews the article and makes an *accept* or *reject* decision. Then a second QC editor accepts or rejects the first QC editor’s decision because we found that no matter how good you are; if you’re reviewing 400 articles a day, you’re going to have an error of about 4%. And the second QC editor can eliminate the errors of the 1st Editor. That way, we can kind of hide some of our own internal incompetence from our members. So that they don’t see our mistakes.
Travis Miller: There’s actually a very big lesson to be learned in that little nugget right there I think. Actually, yeah.
Christopher Knight: To hide your mistakes? Yeah. [Laughing]
Travis Miller: But you know, that second level of editing, that second level of checking that eliminates, you know, 99% of the errors that would have gotten though the first.
Christopher Knight: It’s expensive. It’s just expensive as heck to have that second human. We have a whole team of quality control people that review every single article. And even myself, I did the first 30,000 article reviews myself. Right? So like I’ve been in their shoes. I know what it’s like, and after – let me tell you. After your first 10,000 it gets easier because your eyes – you can kind of like go and you just – because we have to match their information against 5½ pages of single spaced guidelines. And we’ve kind of evolved the system now to be – that’s overwhelming for some people to have to put their mind around, but we’ve evolved the system so that you’re not terminated or banned or penalized so much for being dumb and not getting it the first time.
We kind of like said instead of trying to say you’re a bad author for not knowing the guidelines, now we don’t do that. Now the emails that are generated when there’s a software rejection, are like hey, thanks for submitting your article. You know, we weren’t able to accept it yet because of this issue. Could you log in and fix this issue? And here’s a link to the guidelines as to why it’s, you know. So we use the rejection process to help educate members as to what, you know, we want to help them get their article content submitted. Otherwise we’ve all wasted our time together.
Travis Miller: Yeah. That’s right. That’s a good policy. But anyway, I think ––
Jimmy Vee: I think I’ve gotten that a couple of times. [Laughter]
Travis Miller: Yeah, we’ve got disconnected from all kinds of things. We’re going to need to hook you guys up with Howard Berg, the world’s fastest reader to help your editing team out there with all those articles every day. Help go faster.
Christopher Knight: We had six new people start on Monday.
Travis Miller: Oh my goodness.
Christopher Knight: They have to do – it’ll take them about six weeks. They start their training. We have a fulltime editorial trainer, and we also have a small team that does member support, and our goal is to – we’re trying to shave off – we want to speed up the process so that you don’t know that there are two humans reviewing every article. We want to eliminate – like we want to hide that. And that’s where the human count is. It’s difficult because sometimes our members will scale. Like on a Monday for example, or a Tuesday, or a Wednesday sometimes they’ll scale by – let’s say they’ll increase the submission total by 1,000. And that’s a lot of work. But we’re not complaining. It’s just that we have a difficult time being real consistent in our article review turnaround times.
Travis Miller: Yeah. Right.
Christopher Knight: They’re not going to give you that. But we offer an incredible amount of tools because our marketing strategy is educational marketing. Free marketing. I have a guide that I sell for $77 on Article Production Strategies, but we make a lot more money by giving away ten times that value in free training through videos, through PDFs, through audio interviews like this. Through things that we’re able to repurpose and give to our members so that they can figure it out, and the more that they figure it out, the more they can engage us, or that they submit more articles, or that they can write more articles so that the quality of the articles improve, and then the whole process just continues.
Jimmy Vee: Talk to us about what was going through your head when you decided to go from a paid model to a free model. I mean, how is that decision made, and how did it feel for you to go through that transition?
Christopher Knight: You know, I was doing the projections. I was doing the inclines. I was projecting that at this growth rate, and assuming the growth rate continues, right? I would have taken us an eternity to grow our revenues enough to expand our team as quickly as we have. The free model didn’t happen overnight. It wasn’t like boom. It took some serious time investment.
We even had a series of times when people were – we would have like 200 competitors trying to knock on our door and trying to knock us off a little bit, and then they lasted about six months and they realized how tens of thousands of labor hours it takes to do this right.
The real challenge was getting up – the leap of faith was giving up that guaranteed fee-based revenue model. That was difficult. But at the same time I knew we had to grow because I needed to invest in something that was growing. And the growth rate it wasn’t fast enough.
It’s kind of like – you know, the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times, whichever newspaper at the time wasn’t giving away their archives free, and I kept remembering back to Alan Meckler from Internet.com where he criticized the newspapers that always had a subscription-based model only, and he kept criticizing them for how not quite smart they were. Right? For not offering a free model that was advertiser supported. And of course, now in this economy the advertiser supports stuff and doing this and perhaps maybe other times, but display ads being down. But it was that, I kind of had a leap of faith that yeah, if we can deliver a great user experience, and we can deliver good value that’s highly contextually relevant.
The ads are, you know, probably – you know, think about a magazine. Do any of you guys read Muscle and Fitness or any one of those – any hobby enthusiast magazine?
Travis Miller: Sure.
Jimmy Vee: Sure. Uh-huh.
Christopher Knight: And how many – what percentage of that magazine is ads?
Travis Miller: Lots of it.
Christopher Knight: 40%? Some of them are 80%.
Travis Miller: Sure.
Christopher Knight: And why do we keep buying – why do we give $6 for those magazines? Well, it’s because the ads add value. And in our site, we hope that – I read a statistic that said that 67% of people surfing your site don’t know that the ads are ads. In fact, we get emails all the time people asking us, how the heck do you guys make money? It’s like, what? You don’t see the ads? [Laughing]
Travis Miller: The sponsored links?
Christopher Knight: Yeah. The ads are so contextually relevant to the content that they didn’t see them as ads. It’s like awesome. Okay, that’ll work. I’m sure it’s lower now, because most people are more savvy.
Travis Miller: Oh yeah, they’re getting smarter every day.
Jimmy Vee: Yeah, but you know what? Also, the way the site is designed I think also adds to the way the ads integrate into the content so well through the design is also a reason.
Christopher Knight: Sure. Oh, yeah. That’s an important part. In fact, one little inside secret there is that the ads are in relation to the quantity of content. If there’s an article that has 250 words, for example, or 300 words, we’re going to show a significantly less number of ads on that page than if there’s like 2,000+ words.
Travis Miller: I see.
Christopher Knight: So we’ve made it so that the ads are related to the word count in order to control the ad-to-content ratio so that there’s a kind of uniform experience overall. You know, it’s not perfect, but it’s – we want to give a fast and good quality end-user experience because this is one of those quality issues.
Okay, so our members, the 150,000-plus extra authors who write and submit content in over 600 different markets that we’re in, they are our clients if you will. They are one of the most important partners. Yet our end users, it’s like a chicken and egg thing. They are twenty-five million strong. Okay?
Like this month we will have twenty-five million visitors surf EzineArticles.com, and they are a very important stakeholder, and internally we don’t have a hard rule on this, but end-users have an awful lot of weight in terms of what we do. Oftentimes our members will be like, why don’t you do this and this and this? And it’s like well, you have to see the bigger picture here, because we’re serving more than just our members. You know, we’re serving our end-users, we’re serving the advertisers, we’re serving our members, and we want to deliver a fast positive user experience that leaves them thinking yeah, I really got some good values from EzineArticles.com.
And then from the members’ perspective, we want to be – let’s talk about you guys, because you’re members. Right, Jimmy? You’ve got your articles and Travis, you’re up there?
Travis Miller: Um-hmm.
Jimmy Vee: Yep.
Christopher Knight: We want to be your highest non-search engine referrer of traffic.
Travis Miller: Okay.
Christopher Knight: So you look at your referral logs, where you get your traffic from. If you have eventually dozens then hundreds, and eventually even thousands of articles with us, I’m pretty confident that for a lot of people we are their – like… I hear all the time, we’re their highest non-search engine refer of traffic. And that’s one of our goals.
Travis Miller: Very interesting goal. Well, you know, it’s so interesting. Your model here is that you have – you’ve put so much effort in to providing a quality experience for the end user, the searcher, you know, and for the content provider, yet neither of them give you any money. All just as a means of making the site you know, something that people would stay on and return to and use frequently just to generate more ads. It’s just a – almost a counterintuitive model, but you guys have made such a good go of it.
Christopher Knight: Yeah. In fact, we want to make everyone, not just Google, but everyone who refers traffic to us – that includes all search engines, all social media sites, and any individuals. We want to make anyone who refers traffic in to us to look good for having done so. So when you think about that, how do you make sure that Google, or Yahoo, or Microsoft, or Stumble Upon, or Twitter, or Face Book or any of these send traffic in to us, how do we make sure that they look good for having done so? That thought is that the genesis of all the quality issues that we do.
So for example, the dead links. We have an article diagnostic center where we have this – we don’t have a lot of tolerance for dead links on our site, because that provides a bad user experience. That’s a pretty expensive backend system if you will. We’re also continuously evaluating the uniqueness of the content making sure that people are submitting content that is unique to them. Meaning we should not be able to find any submission on our site on somebody else’s site under somebody else’s name that isn’t the person who submitted to us the first time.
Travis Miller: Okay.
Christopher Knight: Does that make sense? Say like – we’re trying to make sure that you’re not reading the same rehashed garbage. You know, we’re kind of at war with that if you will. Because we want – that would go over with a bad user experience.
Travis Miller: Okay.
Christopher Knight: There’s a tip for those who are writing. If you’re writing for your market and you’ve gone out and done some research and you see this same rehashed crap that everyone else in your market is writing, don’t write about that stuff. You know? Find something unique and related to your expertise, because no one has your perspective. Right? No one has your uniqueness – especially the two of you. I’ve seen some of your marketing stuff. No one has your unique perspective, but that’s exactly what you should be writing about.
Travis Miller: Well you know, as we always say around here – same is lame.
Christopher Knight: Sure.
Travis Miller: And if you look up lame in the dictionary, you find it means pathetically lacking in force and effectiveness. And that’s exactly – if your content is the same as other people’s content, that’s exactly what it’s like. You know, its force and effectiveness. It’s just – it’s meek and meager, and worthless and to be avoided for sure.
Christopher Knight: You know, it’s like the gravitational pull. You’re thinking it’s gravitational marketing, right?
Travis Miller: Right. That’s right.
Christopher Knight: One thing that I learned about marketing & sales is that, I love being – I love attracting highly prequalified visitors to my site. Attracting rather than having to push out to you and say come check out my site! [Laughing] Sure.
I want you who are already highly qualified and in the right buying cycle to have visited my site and then said this is for everyone who is wondering how do I make money in this as a writer. It’s like you make money by submitting your content to us, and getting highly qualified traffic back your website. That traffic from us, they already know something about you. They know about your expertise, they know something about some value you would have given to them. You know, the law of reciprocation is in play. And by coming to visit your site, that’s when it’s your job to convert that visitor into money. To give them – help them add value to their life with your services, products or whatever.
So EzineArticles.com is really a traffic generation machine in terms of the highly qualified prequalified traffic that we send to our members’ websites.
Travis Miller: That’s right.
Christopher Knight: You’re not going to get rich writing content because we don’t pay for content. That’s a different model.
Travis Miller: Yeah. Right.
Jimmy Vee: The people who don’t pay for content in terms of, you know, magazines, you know, and those kinds of things don’t pay very much. They don’t get rich. Really, nobody’s getting rich on that either. [Laughing]
Travis Miller: Unless you’re like Stephen King or Tom Clancy getting paid to write is a totally different thing. But you know, let me ask you this, Chris. I’m just curious. You know, have you found since you really put steam into this thing in 2005, January 2005, into building this new model out so now it’s been four years. Congratulations, by the way. Have you found that development since then of this Web 2.0 phenomenon and this – you know, the birth of dynamic content – have you found this to be a benefit or a detriment to what you’re trying to do, and how have you reacted to all of the proliferation of this new media?
Christopher Knight: So like – I like Web 2.0. In fact, I think a lot about Web 3.0 which is the semantic web, right… Which is providing users eventually – I read about this the other day on Twitter – that eventually people are going to come to websites and they’re going to want to use the website the way their mind works, and not yours. The way the web developer, you know, may have set it up. That’s the real challenge to web developers, is to figure out how to – and website owners for that matter – how to deliver a web experience that allows a person to figure out how they want to use your site, and then allow them to reconfigure the way the website works so that they can get what they want the way they would like to get it; not the way you want to provide it.
EzineArticles.com is actually pretty much dynamically generated. The entire site, we process billions of queries. There’s over fifty+ servers running the site. And so everything’s kind of custom delivered on the fly to the user’s experience yet the common complaint that I hear is that – why does your site look like it’s from 1997? [Laughing] I’m like it works! The dang thing works! We found something that works. And I’m a big believer in split A/B testing and multivariate testing. Every day I look at stats and we do lots of tests. Sometimes hundreds of tests concurrently on everything from ad position to article position to colors. We’re doing a lot of testing continuously to figure out – and watching analytics to figure out what are our users doing, what are they telling us they want. And when what they’re doing matches with what they’re telling us they want matches what we want to do to provide them a better user experience then we’ve got our priority list.
But I think most sites out there – they aren’t Web 2.0 despite them having a little to their Face Book profile. [Laughing]
Jimmy Vee: Or having a clean white graphic with a reflection or something?
Christopher Knight: Yeah. You know, the best website – I keep thinking about how absurd it is that you have to come to a website and – you know, we’re rebuilding our site continuously. The whole site. Underneath like – it’s like an iceberg. There’s a huge site below the surface like an iceberg. And we’re rebuilding it continuously because the challenge is that have to continuously be backwards compatible for everyone who doesn’t have a decent browser. Because the future web is going to be where your browser is actually the enabler of a web application where why should you have to refresh? That makes no sense.
Let’s say a page is 100K in size, and all you’re interested in is 20K of that page. Then you’re interested in 20K of the next page, and you’re interested in 20K of the next page. You might want to page through the page like a magazine. Why should you have to load 100K on each page load? That makes no sense.
Travis Miller: Right.
Christopher Knight: But yet – recently we haven’t been able to AJAX which is the – you know, to me Web 2.0 means AJAX which means making the website so that the user doesn’t have to refresh the entire page to see more content.
Travis Miller: Yeah, the content refreshes internally. Yeah.
Christopher Knight: I think it’s going to take five more years at least before another 50% of sites move that direction. And then it’ll be a real challenge, because then you’ll say hey, Chris, how many visitors do you have, or how many pages do you have then? It’s like – you know, right now we’re not really tracking. You know, how do you track a page that you’re on, on an AJAX call?
Travis Miller: Yeah. Right.
Jimmy Vee: Yeah.
Christopher Knight: So we’re a little geeky here, but it’s – that’s a future challenge.
Travis Miller: Yeah. We’ll figure something out I’m sure.
Jimmy Vee: Yeah.
Travis Miller: Let’s talk for a bit about how to use EzineArticles.com as a tool for business owners who – let me tell you what they would want to accomplish. Number one, lead generation. Number two, reputation, management, and ––
Jimmy Vee: Enhancement.
Travis Miller: Enhancement. And then expert positioning.
Christopher Knight: Okay. Go to http://EzineArticles.com/submit/ and you create your free membership account, and with your articles, which is your primary… You know what we’re really efficient at? We’re really efficient at converting your article content into highly prequalified visitors back to your website. That’s the essence of what we do really efficiently. Better than – we’re so efficient we send a million plus Ezine visitors weekly to our members’ websites. We sent like five million last month. And so how do you use that for positioning?
Well, it gets your name out there, right? And you get two things from us which is one, you get traffic at your website, and you get two – exposure to media. Everyday someone emails us from NBC, CBS, FOX, from the New York Times, from the Wall Street Journal, from the Sentinel, some magazine, some newspaper, wanting to get in contact with one of our members. And so you get exposure, media exposure.
Because journalists are finding you on our site, because they’re using search engines to find experts, and so that’s – it’s kind of like the way to claim your space if you will. And here’s – I usually don’t like going the negative route of why you should do it, but if your name is Jimmy Vee, for example, we only allow one Jimmy Vee expert author to be on our site. So if your name isn’t on the site you might want to register and submit one article and get one article accepted to at least snag your name.
We will allow – like my name is Christopher Knight, or Chris Knight, but there can only be one Christopher Knight, and so therefore if I want – if another Christopher Knight, because I know there’s two dozen of them out there, right – wanted to have on our site, they’d have to have like a Chris space some initial dot Knight, for example. And so there’s a negative reason for why – if you can’t commit to doing it now; well get started somewhere.
In fact, you don’t even have to write the content. In fact, I think your first ten submissions should be content already written from your old email news or archives. From your blog. From your frequently asked questions. From your audio interview that you’ve done in the past that you’ve had transcribed. Like make it an editing exercise. Make it easy and use existing content that you already have the exclusive rights to, which means that that content is only – it’s your content. You’ve written it. You’ve done it. You’ve produced it already. So why do you have to create new content?
It’s kind of like why get new customers when you have some who are asking you to buy? It’s like it’s right there. Use that first.
Travis Miller: Sure.
Christopher Knight: And then you can leverage it. In fact, if I didn’t know you guys better – because I just really met you this year even though you’ve been on our site for some time. As I started reading through your articles today further to get better insight into who you are, I would think that you might have used a lot of your content from your Gravitational Marketing books as articles. It sure looks like it to me. Like you’ve taken lots of splashes of your book and used that to – which is awesome. It’s a great way to get your message out there and to list yourselves as experts, you know, in your defined niche.
Travis Miller: Well in fact, you know ––
Jimmy Vee: It’s very astute of you to say that, and I believe that what actually was kind of a flip-flop. We took a lot of content that we had written early on in our – when we broke off from an agency and started our own business and created Gravitational Marketing, and put free content out into the hands of entrepreneurs and out onto the web, and then onto EzineArticles. Then later came back to that same content when we were approached to, by Wylie to create the book Gravitational Marketing and said okay. you know, let’s take this content that we’ve already written that’s already been proven to be beneficial to a whole bunch of people, and how do we take – you know, take this content and repurpose it and use it in our book?
So it works. It does work both ways because we did create – also create new content for the book which now can go back out as articles and content onto the web.
Travis Miller: I think that the first batch of articles that were ever added to Ezine Articles was that Ten Tall Tales of Traditional Marketing e-book, which was actually originally an email mini-course which then turned into an e-book, which then turned into ten different articles on Ezine Articles. You know, so this content has been pushed around a lot of different ways. But you know what? There’s a lot of different people out there who are going to find you through different ways.
Christopher Knight: Oh definitely. In fact, everyone – I was just thinking – if anyone who’s listening to this call wants to figure how to learn more about our host here, just go to EzineArticles.com. At the very top search box put in Gravitational Marketing, two words, and do a search. You’ll find Jimmy and Travis’ articles.
A lot of people, you know, they say oh my gosh. How am I going to – it’s like such a huge hurdle to get started. And get this. Less than 15% of our members blow past ten articles. And I think the real traffic, the real leverage happens around twenty-five to 250 articles. They were – when you hit past twenty-five then the traffic starts trickling in and it becomes hard to stop the traffic if you will. When you get to the 100 mark, or 200-article mark, the 250-article mark, then it gets real – of course, this is part – most people who reach that level are – have made writing their ritual. Right? Or repurposing the tool if you will to have a lot of content.
It’s such a shame that – I was thinking, everyone who has not seen your content yet, okay, even though it’s on your website already, I know. Okay, I get it. It’s on your website already, it’s in your blog, it’s in your website. To everyone who’s seen that, that content is new to them.
Travis Miller: That’s right.
Christopher Knight: Just like some of the T.V. shows I’ve been watching that were from 2006 that I hadn’t seen before. Oh, that’s new to me.
Travis Miller: That’s right.
Christopher Knight: And then they say well, why should I give you my content? You’re going to outrank me in the search engines. You know, you read articles.
Jimmy Vee: [Laughing] C’mon.
Christopher Knight: I get that all the time, and they say well ––
Jimmy Vee: Oh my God.
Christopher Knight: If you’re going to outrank us, it’s like do you hear what you’re saying? We’re going to outrank you not because we’re intending to do that. It just happens. Okay? And then we’re going to give you tens and eventually hundreds of thousands of – some people have gotten a million visitors from us. Okay? That you wouldn’t have gotten yourself. So like… use us!
Jimmy Vee: Yeah, don’t run away from the guy who’s got all the traffic! Piggyback! I mean, it’s like beautiful.
Christopher Knight: We’re like a traffic train. It’s like you want to get right – put yourself right in front of that bus. You know? And put your content in there and the spoils go to those who are consistent, and follow through on a continuous basis. You know, some people do it once a week, some do it twice a week, some do it once a month, once a quarter. Or they’ll submit twenty-five articles a quarter or something as an exercise.
I’m a big believer in sets. Meaning it’s really difficult to justify the time it takes to write and submit one article. And it’s also very difficult to write a short article. Believe it or not. Most people struggle with – if I say – write a 400-word article and maybe you and I would have – we could do this like that. Right?
Travis Miller: Yeah.
Christopher Knight: But write a 400-word article right now that gives the essence of some slice of your expertise. Take one area of your expertise, whatever it is – if you’re in finance or yoga, or in skiing or golf or whatever field you’re in – and most people will start, when they hit 400 words, they will feel that I’m into this now. I haven’t given enough expertise yet. And then they’ll write 800 to 1,000 words.
And now maybe it’s 1,000 words, they’re thinking yeah, that’s a good representation of my expertise on this sliver of a topic. Right? And at that point I call that the accidental article opportunity. Because at that point, if you cut that article in half then you’d have two 500-word articles that’ll produce more and will attract more traffic than one 1,000-word article. We know this to be true statistically that it’s – the sweet spot is between 450 to 800 words per article.
If you’re submitting 1,000-plus size articles, as much as we appreciate all of the new content that’s submitted, you’re probably leaving some traffic on the table there. You probably could get higher return from that content if you’d slice it up into less than 800-word articles.
Jimmy Vee: I think I’m guilty of that.
Christopher Knight: Are you? Well, I think you did pretty good. I looked at your articles. They were in the 500-wordish range. 600 words.
Jimmy Vee: Oh, okay. Well you know, I get ––
Travis Miller: He just talks a lot. He doesn’t know what he says. [Laughing]
Jimmy Vee: I’m long-winded. Christopher, what do you think in addition to the consistency and now the word count, which is interesting – tell me, you know, like top three tips that you would tell somebody who’s either never used it or is new to using it, on how to get maximum effectiveness from the service.
Christopher Knight: Okay. The first thing, your article titles. They are 90% of the effectiveness of your article. If you write an article, you don’t want to be cute. Meaning you don’t want to include puns or inferred meanings. You want to be real blunt.
And your article title should have a primary hook at best – or at the least, I mean – and a secondary hook at best. Meaning your article title is a promise as to what you’re going to deliver in the article body. Right? Just so you know, we look for that. We always look for does the article body deliver on the promise made in the article title.
So perhaps if you’re one of those people that thinks that you’re going to make a promise in the article title that can only be fulfilled in your website, we reject that type of article.
So the article title should have a primary hook, like a main key word or key phrase, and it should have a secondary hook, and it should have – that’s related to that, okay? And it should be about 60% in natural language. Meaning you’re not running for the search engines. Not only that, but when people write for the search engines, their articles are so transparent to us that we can’t accept them. So the title should be natural English language, it should make sense, it should deliver a promise, and at best include a primary and secondary hook relating to the topic that you’re talking about.
This is the long tail. Have you ever heard of the long tail?
Travis Miller: Yeah.
Jimmy Vee: Sure.
Christopher Knight: You know what that is? There’s the head, the tail, the mid-tailpiece for, for example, weight loss would be at the head of a tail, and then popular Atkins diet might be a part of the middle of the tail. And then Atkins diet for children with diabetes. That’s part of the long tail. And it’s difficult to win traffic at the head of the tail even though I recommend you write about – you should write about twenty-five – this is technical now. You should write about twenty to 25% of your content for the head of the tail, and about 75% for the long – for mid to long tail. Meaning very specific content, because it’s real easy to get a lot of traffic for long tail slices. Okay? So that’s the first step.
Get your title right, and be blunt, and the next big one is this saying. Okay? Here it is.
The article body is the give;
The resource box is the take.
Resource box is is located right below the article body. Meaning that’s where you get paid if you will. If the article body is a give where you give to the reader, you share your expertise, and the resource box is where you take. That’s where you say if you’d like to learn more about Jimmy Vee and Travis Miller, click on GravitationalMarketing.com where you can download your free course on the six ways to improve your marketing, get more readers and more clients overnight. Right? So that’s the perfect resource box.
So the resource box is the next secret. So once you nail the title right, number two, you get the article body right where you include unique tips that are not the same regurgitated rehashed crap that everyone else does, you’re giving unique value, you’re using bullet points, you’re using lists, you’re using short sentences or short paragraphs. You don’t want to go more than seven sentences in a paragraph.
People are scanning. If you only knew how much time people read – our average visitor is right on the thirty-second mark. Okay? And so people don’t give your article two minutes. They don’t give it a full minute sometimes.
Jimmy Vee: Sure.
Christopher Knight: They say – people are scanning. They’re in scan mode by the time they read your article. And so you’ve got to hook them, you’ve got to nail them with a gift of information that you have to give them that’s unique, that can help them, that can add value to their life. They can solve a complete problem, okay? Whatever that is.
And then right below the article body – and I think that internet marketer has helped this – you’re talking about the internet as a whole. Right? And internet marketers which have had a big impact in that trained us how to do one thing. Want to guess what that is?
Jimmy Vee: Read long copy?
Christopher Knight: Yes. Okay. So you’ve read long copy, and then what do you do? Let’s say it’s a one-page sales letter, right? You’ve seen these before, right?
Jimmy Vee: Yep.
Christopher Knight: You’ve got a one-page sales letter and now you want to buy the goods. What do you usually have to do?
Jimmy Vee: Click.
Christopher Knight: Go to the bottom, right?
Travis Miller: Yep.
Christopher Knight: That means you’ve got to find the dang purchase button on the bottom.
Jimmy Vee: Sure.
Christopher Knight: And this phenomenon I noticed back in 2004 was like I couldn’t believe how the click-through rate was so high below the fold. Because our ad click-to rate was not high below the fold, but our resource boxes, our members’ resource boxes, are very high. In fact, the average click-through rate is between 2% to 12%. Okay?
That’s huge. Because in marketing it’s like if you get 1% you’re doing great. Right? And so our average member gets between 2% to 12% click-through rate on their articles. And though it’s below the fold because everyone’s kind of trained that to learn more about the person you’ve got to scroll down to the bottom of their article. That’s just the way it is. And the market is pretty trained on that, so that’s – the resource box. Here’s some tips. You want some tips for the resource box?
Travis Miller: Absolutely.
Jimmy Vee: Yeah.
Christopher Knight: Restate your name. It’s like why should I restate my name, because it’s in the byline already? It’s like they’ve already forgotten who you are.
Travis Miller: They scrolled down.
Christopher Knight: Or they didn’t care who you are. Scammers do not state their names in their resource box because they’re often ashamed of their articles. We know that. The readers know that. So restate your name. Give a pitch right there, right on the spot where you tell them if they order a copy that it helps them learn more about what you can do for them.
Travis Miller: Right.
Christopher Knight: And if you want to improve your CTR, your click-through rate in your resource box links, which you’re allowed up to two self-serving active links, okay? One of which should be a full http:// you know, your company dash name dot com ( example: http://Your-Company-Name.com/ ). It should be – at least one of those links should be a full URL because – and I’ll get back to that – you also want to include the word free. Because including the word free will increase click-through rates. You want to give them a free report. You want to give them a chance to download or subscribe to your free newsletter.
There must be something in your article – you’ve written an article for free. Surely you must do something else for free where they can have a no-resistance way to get in contact with you. This is not the hard close. Your resource box isn’t going to go buy now! It says buy now? I don’t even know you!
Jimmy Vee: Right.
Christopher Knight: This is a chance to have them join your email newsletter. In fact, I think that’s one of the best – this is a list-building lead generator for sure! Use articles to build your permission-based email lists.
Travis Miller: That’s right.
Christopher Knight: Because then once you capture them, they already know and like and trust you about something on a low level. Your newsletter can then, over the months and years, can build up that trust to the point where they’re ready to purchase. So it’s – those who try selling hard at the – in the resource box just don’t succeed. We tested it. Lots of people tested it.
And then so here’s what not to include in the resource box. You don’t want to include every expertise you have under the sun. You especially don’t want to include your résumé. You don’t want to include unrelated things to your expertise. Just because you’re an expert in marketing and in soccer doesn’t mean you should mention soccer because I’m questioning well, what’s your real expertise? Are you here to help me with soccer or are you here to help me with my marketing? You know, what is it?
You don’t want to include your phone number unless you expect to receive calls, and you’re going to have that phone number for the rest of your life. You don’t want to include your email address unless you have no problem being spammed for the rest of your life. And you also don’t want – the worst thing that could happen is somebody could discover you in the year 2020, and then not be able to contact you.
So you have to think evergreen content, which is content that lives on for years, and you want to think how do I – like once you put this content out there, it’s awfully costly to retract it even though on our site you can delete it and you can change, and you can edit it after the fact. As of right now you can do that. You’ve got to think long-term. You’ve got to think multi-years long-term with your content.
How can I make sure that my content continues to bring me visitors and traffic for years? I mentioned this before the call. This is what I love about article writing marketing because – and here’s where I’m in conflict with myself because you know, we make money on pay-per-click advertising. Right?
Travis Miller: Right.
Christopher Knight: We make money on the cost per thousand, cost per click, cost per action, and so I’m actually going to sell against that for a moment. When you do a pay-per-click campaign, you buy your key words, your key phrases, whatever you buy. When that campaign ends, and you’ve spent your thousands or whatever you spent, the traffic stops. Right?
Travis Miller: Yeah.
Christopher Knight: That’s how it works.
Travis Miller: That’s right.
Christopher Knight: So with article writing, your traffic doesn’t stop until the article is not on the internet anymore. So you get initial boost of traffic from us, you get initial – and then after that you get traffic spikes throughout the years as people pick up your newsletter and send it to their newsletter audience.
For example, if you’ve written about marketing and let’s say we have a marketing person – I’m going to take an offline or non-internet based market, let’s just say somebody from a major corporation wants to send a marketing newsletter out and everybody who publishes the newsletter has this problem which is having a high supply of unique high quality content that they can send their members. Right?
And so at some point when they’re under a crunch, they come to a site like ours. In fact, that’s the original purpose of EzineArticles.com. It’s a matching service with email newsletter publishers looking for high quality content. They’ll take your article and they’ll send it to their list of 100,000 members, or 50,000 members. And say here’s a guest feature. Right?
And then we give you analytics and reports that allow you to see not always where that traffic came from, but the days that you receive the spikes, and now you can even – we’re helping all 150k+ members – we’re helping them all list build. Meaning somebody visits your article, they can actually subscribe to the Jimmy Vee alert list. Every time that Jimmy Vee has an article – and Travis, you guys are coauthors right?
Jimmy Vee: Yeah.
Christopher Knight: Every time you guys have a new article posted on our site, the people who have subscribed to our site to receive new article alerts about you will receive an email from us at like 10:00 or 11:00 in the morning the next day after we’ve approved the article. So that sends mega high interest, high rolls and traffic back to that article.
Travis Miller: Yeah.
Christopher Knight: Right now it’s in the quarter million emails we’re sending a month for those author alerts.
Travis Miller: That’s excellent. Yeah.
Jimmy Vee: I have a question about the resource box. Have you guys tested you know, promoting in the resource box the opportunity to basically take this content and reuse it?
Christopher Knight: Yes. We allow you to restate the reprint rights rules that provided that your reprint right rules are not in conflict with our posted publisher terms of service, you can restate them in the resource box. Sure.
Jimmy Vee: Have you found that that increases credibility?
Christopher Knight: You’re welcome to reprint this article provided that you leave the links and all the content intact, and don’t do anything. You know, like keep it intact – as long as you don’t change anything and keep all the links active you’re welcome to reprint this article. You’re welcome to say that. Is that what you mean?
Jimmy Vee: Basically what I was saying, Chris, was – you hit it right on – the nail on the head. That’s exactly what I was thinking. I was just wondering if you guys have done any tests where you’ve used resource boxes that basically push reusing this content in other places, and that strategy has helped the spreadability of articles versus driving people to your website specifically.
Christopher Knight: The number one thing that we found in our tests that proves the syndication, like if there’s like one thing that’ll improve your article’s ability to be reprinted it’s that you only include one self-serving active link.
Jimmy Vee: Okay.
Christopher Knight: Okay? And that’s difficult for a lot of people to swallow because they think that they have to have two or three. And of course, we only allow two right now. So because publishers who are you know, every outbound link to somebody else’s website is called the exit click. Right?
Travis Miller: Yep.
Jimmy Vee: Um-hmm.
Christopher Knight: So that the publisher, if you make money on per click, if you make money on – you’re trying to monetize that visitor any exit click that you don’t make money on is your loss.
Jimmy Vee: Sure. Okay.
Christopher Knight: You just don’t want to provide more than one active self-serving link to – they feel that that’s a great enough payment to reach their 50,000 members. Essentially it’s really – whenever somebody uses your article, that’s really an endorsement. It’s an implied endorsement that hey, I believe that this five-foot-high marketing guy, you know, Jimmy Vee, he’s – and Travis – is good, but by including that in there. So it’s kind of like that’s the current opinion. But we really haven’t tested including or not including the reprint rights in the resource box. We have tested product pitches that I’m not sure did so well. We tested the product pitch field we call it, where we included a related product. So for example, you could sell your book at the bottom of an article. That didn’t convert as well as we expected it to. Our members or users are real used to - they’re a warm, highly prequalified lead. It’s up to you then to do something with that lead, and that seems to be the most efficient way to send that traffic off rather than to try to convert them and close them right there on the spot.
Jimmy Vee: Absolutely. I could see that 100% I mean, Gravitational Marketing, what we talk about in our book is you have to gravitate, captivate, invigorate and then motivate your customer, and the point of Gravitational Marketing is about building relationships. Well, this content out there on Ezine Articles and all out on the web because of the power of proliferation of your site, it brings these interested prospects in looking for some very specific information. When they find your article, they read your article, now they feel like they have a little bit of a connection to you, begins a relationship, gravitates them to you. Now they click on your site at the bottom of that article because you’ve provided them value, and this is why creating great content is important. And then brings them over to your site, and now you continue – get them into your web funnel, Ezine, your free content and get them opt in and get permission to talk to them further. Now you’ve begun that relationship and you can foster that relationship over time, and ultimately turn them into a customer.
Christopher Knight: Right.
Jimmy Vee: And that’s powerful in that Ezine Articles gives people a way to get in front of a whole lot of people with – you know, just mega reach out on the internet for absolutely zero dollars. Just an investment of time and you know, taking your content you already have or creating original content.
Travis Miller: And the willingness to openly share your valuable information with people. The idea of giving value first. That’s really the entire – the entire productive energy that makes your business go forward, which is amazing.
Christopher Knight: Exactly. You know, it worked for us. It worked for us and it went from fee-based to free-based, and of course we have opinion memberships now that’s fee-based for those who want priority article review, but we still – our editorial bias can’t be bought. There’s still – we have plenty of members who are terminated, too. But my point was is that the same reason we have – that we did really well going from fee to free okay, we unlocked the market potential for their site. And I think it’s the same thing for individuals.
Like you know, somebody will say why in the heck – let’s take a plumber for example. He or she has expertise by trade in plumbing, and they’re wanting to get their – they sell a plumbing manual on their website for example, or they sell their – they’re trying to build traffic to their website to get more jobs, for example. Or consulting or something. And they can’t get their mind around why the heck should I give away my expertise when people pay me $200 an hour to you know, sell pumps. It’s like you don’t get it. Here, let me help you get it.
By giving of yourself first, you begin the law of reciprocity. You have to begin that law and for any reason because it’s cheaper than buying those leads.
Jimmy Vee: Sure.
Christopher Knight: So if you’re looking at what the cost of a lead is, for some people it’s 25¢ or $1. Sometimes it’s $10 or even $200 for a lead. So like whatever the cost of your lead is. Most people haven’t put thought into what that really is. But when you look at what it costs to acquire a sale, and you look at you know, your time. If you have more money than time, well then hire somebody – hire an editor to help you repurpose your existing content. Because if you’re at that point where you’ve got more money than time, when you can afford to have an editor in your business. Right? Or a part-time or fulltime – whatever, doesn’t matter – that can repurpose your content and help you further spread your expertise out there.
Travis Miller: That’s right.
Christopher Knight: And to do over time which is so important because we have this booster-rocket-effect that happens. I don’t know if you’re familiar with it, but it’s the two weeks. Some people ask me why Chris, why do I get a boost of traffic the first two weeks my article’s out there, and then it kind of tapers off, and then it spikes throughout the year. Why is it that initial boost?
It’s because we do this huge process behind the scenes after your article is approved that includes email alerts. We send millions of permission-based emails every month in each category and for each author. Right? Every day those go out. There’s also 160,000 RSS feeds within the site. We’ve got widgets and we’ve got RSS feeds, and we’ve got people sucking down that content and reprintinga that content into their site so they’re auto discovering the timing of your article.
And the way that people use this site is that they – people think that they come to our site and Ezine Articles is the destination. And as much as we’d like that to be true, it’s not. Okay? We think that just a little under 10% visit the site on purpose. The other 90% will end on our site thanks to the handoff of a search engine, a social media site, a widget, an RSS feed, an email alert. You know, some other social media site. Twitter for example. Twitter.EzineArticles.com is one of our projects. We’ve got all kinds of ways that we attract traffic to a site.
And so our job is to promote your articles and find ways to expand your reach. You job is to not worry about that. Obviously everything’s above board, but sometimes people say well, how can they help promote my articles? Well, if you could put a widget on your website that’d be great. We have those. EzineArticles.com/widget. You can put your own advertisement up on your own website. We can customize the widget so it matches your site. You can do that if you want. But leave it up to us, so you can spend your valuable time on creating – you know, cranking up and writing brand new high quality exclusive rights, you know, content that provides value.
Jimmy Vee: So Chris, what do you think is the best timing on putting out articles? You know, so you wouldn’t want to put out twenty-five articles all at one time.
Christopher Knight: Okay, so that question is the big dump theory we call it. So the question is if you’re – it depends on where you’re at in your cycle. For example, if you’re just starting out right now and you’re not on our site yet. You’re not a EzineArticles.com registered author. And you have fifty articles right now that you can submit.
You’re thinking well, you know what I should do? You know, Jimmy Vee, he says I should submit it over time and it’s like this booster rocket effect thing that Chris just talked about where I get traffic over time, and it’s better if I submit it over time. So let’s just say you take those fifty articles and you submitted them one per day for the next fifty days. Okay?
We’ve done tests where if you do that versus submitting all fifty right now, okay, at the end of fifty days or at the end of one year, you will find that the person who did the big dump of fifty articles all at one time received more traffic than the person who split it up over fifty days. Okay? So we call it the big dump theory.
So if you’re brand new to us, don’t send it out over time. Do the big dump, submit it all at once, and you’ll get statistically – we log our numbers, we crunch terabytes of data every day, we know that you’re better off to submit it all at once.
If you’ve already done that, then it makes sense to do it in batches over time. You know, once a week, once every two days. Once every ten days. You know, three times a month. Once every ten days. Some people do it every Friday morning. Our highest submit days are Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday in that order, and then sometimes Thursday. Our lowest submit days are Friday, Saturday. Saturday’s the lowest, and then Sunday.
So the servers run the fastest for members on Friday and Saturday. It’s pretty quick. You know, we’ve invested a lot to make it fast. Does that answer your question?
Jimmy Vee: Sure. Yeah. That actually does. So if you’re new, you want to do a big dump, and do a trickle if you’re already involved and you already have several articles out there. What would you say? Like if you already have twenty – you know, ten to twenty articles out there?
Christopher Knight: Yeah, well it tends to be twenty-five. It’s at that point that you could be reaching the article reading ritual level where you build it into your day. Just like you check email, you write an article, you submit an article; answer your callbacks and whatnot.
It’s just the best authors who get the most traffic from us are ones who have hundreds of thousands, and there’s a few that have had millions of visitors sent from us. They’ve made it a ritual. It’s part of their writing ritual. And for some people that might be – for the first year it might be repurposing ritual. Right? Repurposing existing content that they’ve already written.
But further – make it part of your ritual. In fact, premium members can schedule them where you can submit a big dump of fifty and then you can schedule them to be released one every day, or one every two days, and you can even schedule the hour now. Our premium members can schedule the hour of day that they’re released. So that’s another way to just set it and forget it, and walk away.
Jimmy Vee: Nice. Awesome. Awesome.
Travis Miller: Listen, we could probably do this all day. I imagine that there’s probably a gazillion tips.
Jimmy Vee: And questions.
Travis Miller: Yeah. It’s great. But the big point here – get involved. You know, we’re always telling you people listening here, be an expert, be a trusted advisor. Give value first. Create content. It’s the easiest way to differentiate yourself from other people. To get out of that same is lame trap, and Ezine Articles is a great medium to do it with. You know, a great way to get onto the search engines.
You know, I tell you what. If your website isn’t even ranking and the search engines, you can’t even find yourself, at least get some content out to Ezine Articles, because they do rank.
Jimmy Vee: They do rank.
Travis Miller: You’ll get shown and you’ll have links back to you site which may or may not – you know, I know Chris – you know, you don’t present this as a search engine optimization tool. It may or may not cause the search engines to finally index your site or you know, possibly increase, you know, your own page – your own popularity or whatever.
But the bottom line is you get traffic to those things which will drive traffic to your site and it’s a great place to start. And also it’s a third party service. The articles tend to have a little more credibility there than sitting on your own site because you’re an author, you’re an expert, somewhere else besides your own little world. So really great.
Chris, I want to thank you sincerely for taking your time spending with us today, sharing your energy and your wisdom with us. Your knowledge and expertise. And all the people listening, it really has been I think very valuable and useful.
Christopher Knight: Okay well, thanks Travis. I really appreciate it. And Jimmy Vee, I appreciate the invitation to be in this call. It’s great.
Travis Miller: Alright. Well, let’s make sure to stay in touch and everybody – this has been Straight Talk with Jimmy Vee and Travis Miller and our guest, Christopher Knight, CEO of EzineArticles.com. Of course, I am the big idea guy, Travis Miller.
Jimmy Vee: And I’m Jimmy Vee, the five-foot-high marketing guy.
Travis Miller: And if you’re listening to this program somewhere other than on our website, make sure to come on and visit us at GravitationalMarketing.com to hear additional interviews like this.
Jimmy Vee: And get hold of our free customer attraction starter pack.
Travis Miller: Tons of fun. See you around guys.